Wednesday, April 13, 2016

Input Desired

The below post came from the Conquer Him website, a blog I quite enjoy. I would be very interested to get perspectives from others regarding this author’s view on dominance and submission within the context of a female led relationship. Do you agree that the submissive should not pressure, in anyway, his wife to live in ways that she is not currently or do things she is currently not doing? I will soon be having a discussion with Katie regarding concerns I have about our current relationship but this post made me reconsider whether or not I should voice those concerns or just let things ride as they are. I want to follow. I want to obey. I don't want to top from the bottom. I really do want her to lead. I don't want to make Katie into something she isn't. But I do see issues and I wonder if expressing them is a form of pressure as this author seems to imply. Would love to hear your thoughts.
 
Here is the link to the blog post as well as the post to which I am referring…



I understand why men have the desire for a strong willed woman. He knows that if she chooses him, she’s not choosing him to appease him; she’s choosing him because he is exactly what she wants.

Many men are chosen by strong and powerful women and they are excited because they know that she will be great at leading their Female Led Relationship. Then these men become impatient because although she is clearly expressing what she wants and doesn’t want, these men want her to do MORE. They want her to be more aggressive. They want her to be more demanding. They want her to actively remind him that she is the one in charge.

While this fantasy of having a super controlling and vocal woman is common, it does not describe the powerful women of Conquer Him. Powerful women never have to explicitly demand things from men. Powerful women do not have to forcefully punish men. Powerful women are given power by others because they trust that she knows what to do with it.

When a man desires a woman who will “act” more dominant they are really saying that they do not want a FLR. If he wanted a real and true FLR, her communication style would be enough for him because even if she whispers her desires and says ‘thank you’ when things are done correctly, she is still leading by making the decisions.

Men who want a woman to be more dominating are actually asking the woman to perform for them.  It is hurtful to the woman because she begins to feel that who she is at her core is not good enough.  She wants to love you and lead you-her way. Why would you question her ability to love you by complaining that she is not doing it right?

Do you really want a Female Led Relationship or do you want a woman who will perform for you?

You can’t pressure a woman to dominate you. If you do, and she does it, she is only acting because she doesn’t want to lose you. If you are okay with having a fake FLR then you can keep this up. If you truly want a FLR then listen to her, accept that she is who she is and show appreciation for her choosing you in the first place. No woman wants to hear that she is not demanding enough. If you are that dissatisfied you can try to find someone else who will perform to your expectations but then again- that is not a FLR.

When you are trying to lead her to have your fantasies fulfilled you are trying to dominate her. A powerful woman won’t appreciate that.
If having an aggressive woman is important to you, you can always talk to her about having a designated play night where you can discuss the things you like and what she likes and play them out on that night only. She may play along if she thinks she will enjoy it. If she refuses to play along it simply means she does not operate that way and her desire to be more calm and sweet should be respected.

When you pressure a woman to be more dominating you are telling her that her love is not enough for you. You are complaining. You are being a pest. You are not appreciating her for who she is.

This kind of behavior, if consistent, is detrimental to any relationship. No woman wants to be told that she’s not good enough. If you really feel that way, then you must leave her alone.

If you really do love and cherish her, then allow her the space to evolve on her own. A powerful woman does not like to be pushed. A powerful woman wants to feel FREE.

Society is already trying to force her to conform to its standards. When she is at home with you give her the freedom to be who she is.

No pressure.

32 comments:

  1. my wife went through her goddess training. She and I both felt that she believes only in flr and not femdom led relationships. Ours is a femdom relationship and it is built on communication to help us improve our relationship. If you don't have these talks and tell each other how you feel then how is the other person suppose to know. That is not topping from the bottom it is communicating with each other. I do want other things that my wife wouldn't have thought of for herself. I am the one who has done all the reading and if it hadn't been for our talks then we wouldn't be where we are today. I love my wife and would do anything for her but things need to stay fresh and interesting or things wouldn't work for us. I am grateful for what we have but ours is definitely a femdom relationship. (Loving femdom relationship) I quit reading the conquer me site as it is just all about the woman and in a relationship it has to be a couple and their views together. Queenie doesn't believe in a femdom relationship she just wants a yes man. SS

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    1. SS, thanks for your comments. It's your last sentence that will not work for us. I could never be, nor would Katie ever want, need to just be her yes man. Like you noted, a relationship requires communication and although we communicate well we don't often openly talk about our submissive and dominant roles and life much. Maybe that is the real crux of the issue. Something I had not thought of until now. Thanks! I needed to hear what you had to say.

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    2. You are slightly correct, Dear SS. I understand Femdom relationships but I do not teach women to abuse men unless they ask me to teach them. My courses teach whatever the woman wants to learn. If there was an issue or something I missed, she could have told me and I would have gladly instructed her. It is always my pleasure to do so and ALL of the women knew that.

      AND yes, I do believe in YES men. Men who are capable of saying YES to everything a woman wants is a HERO in my eyes. Those who demand from women things the woman do not feel comfortable doing, are being manipulative. I encourage. the women to give it a try and if they don't like it, they don't have to do ANYTHING they don't really want to do.

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  2. I disagree strongly with her position. I do not "pressure" my wife to be more domination, but I certainly "enable" her to be so. Telling her that I would like her to be harder on me, if she is comfortable with it, is giving her an opportunity to do it if she wants to grow in that direction. I honestly think the concept of "topping from below" is probably the most misused concept in all of FLR. I don't even consider it to be an FLR concept. It's just imported BDSM doctrine that has little place in a relationship that is about mutual growth, which requires open and honest communication.

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    1. Dan, thanks for sharing. I understand the gist of what you are saying and I appreciate your thoughts. Like you said, I do think I need to express concerns but I need to do so in such a way that does not force her hand in anyway.

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  3. Hi, these questions often abound in discussions about power exchange and more so in FLR. The answers differ depending upon the style and nature of the relationship. Everyone is unique and what works in one will be off limits in another.

    IMHO the key for me, in terms of assessing my behaviour, is what was my true intent. If I an genuine in my desire to ensure everything is about making her life easier, then if this is my intent then I think I'm on solid ground. So if it's about her or we or us then go for it. It won't always be what she wanted but at least the intent of the action was genuine and shouldn't cause issues or undermine her power.

    If it's about me or I, then that's where problems can start. You might kid yourself it's about her, say giving her a back massage, but if your intent is for her to pleasure or tease you afterwards then it's all about me, not her. Undermining her authority, coercion, pressure, whinging, cajoling all lead to make her question who's really in charge. In my experience the impact this has on her confidence and willingness to lead is significant. Do it too many times and don't be surprised if she walks away from it.

    On the opposite side however, surrendering into the power exchange seems to ignite even more dominance in her. Might not be what you thought it would be, but it's what I have committed to.

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    1. DtBHC, You bring up valid points. And I think you're saying a lot of what submissives do come from the heart and intent. The back massage being a good example. I need to make it about her and I need to not make it about me. But when things like massages disappear, I honestly miss them. I miss being pushed, if that makes sense. I enjoy when she really makes life about me catering to her rather than she catering to me. I sometimes feel sad when she says I need to go get a drink, rather than tell me to go get her one. I know that's a little thing but it's a symptom of an internal mindset that we are more equal that maybe I wish for us to be.

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  4. IH,
    I, like you, want to obey, to follow her leadership, and for it to be real. I don't want to unduly influence her so she does not herself feel she is in charge but, part of my duty (and I believe, yours too) is to gather any info to help her make the best choices. If I have concerns, it is my duty to bring them to her. If I withhold information and potential problems I do her a disservice and help to set us up for a fall. I believe it is all in how we approach any subject. She has a right and a need to know if I am content or if I have concerns. To hide them from her while claiming I am being a proper follower is not doing her or our marriage any good, in fact it can do harm.
    I seldom ask for things. I do tell her what I like and about things I think would be interesting but, I leave her to decide if and when. I don't badger, whine, plead, etc. Like with other decisions, I present her with the info, we discuss, she decides.
    As to the article from Conquer Him, I believe it is mostly good. My take on it is that we should not push and pressure. We should let her know our desires and of course, any concerns.

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    1. DLsKnight, Thanks for the thoughts. Others posting here seem to be saying the same as you.... that we need to obey, we need to be open and we need to let her choose the path she feels most comfortable taking. I'm trying to do that and in fact will do that. Sometimes I get into these 'lulls' where I want more and then when I come out of them, I'm good to go. Mostly I keep that stuff inside. This time I let my emotions out and I think that was a good thing cause it's good for me to let her hear my thoughts and consider them as she leads me/us. Thanks again!

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    2. Sometimes letting our wives know our thoughts is hard, a little scary maybe, but it is always for the best. I'm not sure it is any easier for me even though I know she will listen and make the best call for us. I'm sure Katie will for ya'll

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  5. I'm Hers,

    My own and my Owners view is that every relationship is different and there is no one size fits all answer, what works for us works for us but may not for others etc. Owner is quite clear that She expects a relationship that makes Her life easier and not harder and so things that She would regard as being a chore for Her to do.

    However, She is also a strong believer in incremental development and training on my part and She actively encourages me to make suggestions for how we can develop my submission and control further. This usually occurs every 4-5 months. i can submit whatever ideas and thoughts i might have to Her for Her to consider. She may choose to adopt some, or ignore them all, employ Her own or a mix of all three. This in part depends on how She adjusges how well i have been developing up until that point. For example, i suggested that She take financial control on a regular basis for over five years but it was only this year when She decided i was at a point when that was an appropriate next step. Equally, i have requested semi-permanent orgasm denial for me (i know, i am odd like that!) for years. However, to date She has always said She likes to watch me cum occasionally and so has demurred from this.

    In short, i don't think it is wrong to ask and to say what is on your mind, communication between any couple is obviously vital. However, i do think it is entirely Katie's decision and if she decides no then no it is for not. Maybe putting your request in writing and then having an opportunity every once in a while to make further written suggestions will feel less 'pushy' than verbally asking? Just a thought.

    p
    x

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    1. Happy pet,
      I like the incremental development idea that you explained. I don't know that we are dealing with an incremental development issue but rather a lapsing back and away from things that used to be. I'm not sure if the change has to do with a change in direction she wants or if it is due to her just forgetting about things and not monitoring me like she used to. But I agree, we do need to talk and I need to be open in expressing thoughts and observations when that time comes. Always love having you stop by to share.

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  6. I like Conquer Him I even bought the tee-shirt "I Love it when she wins". I try not to pressure my wife in any way. But I will offer my opinion to her. She already knows she is the leader in the relationship and really doesn't need any impute from me other than suggestions. After almost 5 years in our FLR I know my limitations. We will from time to time talk about how much our FLR has changed our relationship for the better and if I have a suggestion that's maybe when I might bring something up.My wife doesn't hesitate to ask my opinion but she knows her decision will be the final one. RR

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    1. RR, I was hoping you would comment since I saw you had commented on the Conquer Me blog post. I think what I needed to hear from you is that you aren't a doormat even though you know who is in charge in your home. You still voice opinions. I want to voice concerns as well but I don't want to do so and thereby force her to change if she is not interested. I guess I don't want to coerce and I know I can be pretty convincing at times. Maybe I just need to tread carefully whenever we do talk.

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  7. The post in conquer him is poorly written. As a submissive I wanted to gag. A dominant women is not a fragile flower that needs tender loving space and time to grow into a dominant women. If she is dominant she has no problems with a submissive who challenges her. She will have no problem expressing her pleasure and displeasure. If she does not want to be dominant or is afraid to be then she is not a dominant person. She may have a blend of dominant and submissive traits. Finding that balance is important.
    My wife is dominant all the way through. She still hates dominant our relationship 100% and likes to give up certain stuff she hates. Like our finances. She leaves them to me. She may check in on my 2 or 3 times a years but that is it.
    If you are in a female led relationship and she has been in charge for many years then what you can say is the relationship, where it stands, is what she wants. The things she ignores or does not bring up, she does not want. If she is playing at being dominant that is a whole different story.
    RB

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    1. RB, Thanks for sharing! I think your mistress is one who probably has a strong personality and is willing to state her views unabashedly. Although Katie has strong opinions she is quite gentle when it comes to dealing with me and I think that's where some of our struggles lie. She's always looking out for my best interest-sometimes even doing some of my work to lighten my load. What I think she still doesn't get is that a demanding Katie is a sexy Katie and one who makes for a happy me. I love it when she lets that dominant side come out but it doesn't happen all the time.

      All that to say dominant women come in all varieties in mine tends to be one who is a little bit more on the mild side. Thanks again for giving me input on this particular post. Stop by again.

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  8. The following ridiculous statement defines this writer's personal view of a FLR: "Powerful women never have to explicitly demand things from men. Powerful women do not have to forcefully punish men. Powerful women are given power by others because they trust that she knows what to do with it."

    Rarely have I seen such a cop-out expressed in such absolute terms. It's a statement from someone who has no intention of taking any responsibility for a relationship. In my view, it's just plain lazy on her part. The author continues to abrogate any personal responsibility for the relationship by decrying any and all attempts by the male to actually communicate his desires. What rubbish! I would never deny my husband the right to express his views on what's happening in our relationship. The ultimate decisions are always mine, but his input is invaluable. Suggesting that any dialogue on his part, any questions or suggestions, is evidence that he doesn't really want a FLR is patently absurd.

    If I were you, I'd take this particular blog entry with a huge grain of salt. Do not be afraid to express your views.

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    1. Lady Grey, you know I always love it when you give me your opinion and this time is no exception. Thanks for your thoughts. As I read your comment as well as the several comments previous I have re-considered my thinking. I asked Katie if she would like to talk about our "situation" and she said yes. I'm going to leave it to her to pick the time and place and let her take the lead in this regard. If she wants my opinion I'm going to share it. If she doesn't… Which I very much doubt… Then I won't. At the time of reading this other blog post I think I was confusing the word "pressure" with that of expressing my thoughts. I do think there is a big difference between the two. Again, thanks for weighing in on this and I loved the word "abrogate" in your comment :-) That was a nice touch!

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  9. My wife also went through the Conquer Him Goddess Training. While she derived some benefit from it, she also found it to be quite frustrating. Ultimately, she decided that the approach taught by Queenie was not right for us. In fact, Queenie was quite critical of our relationship which is based on the principles of the DWC. Every relationship is different, and the goal is to find what works for you and leave the rest. However, I do agree with the article to the extent that I did have to allow my wife the freedom to explore on her own and find a level that she is comfortable with.


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    1. Brent, thanks for sharing. I am not familiar with DWC Principles and would be interested to hear more about these principles to which you mentioned. Regardless of how woman leaves I agree with you and that she needs to choose your own path. However I think there needs to be some compromise if that path doesn't meet the needs of her husband. After all there needs to be a mutual satisfaction by both parties to make the relationship work.

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    2. DWC stands for the Disciplinary Wives' Club. The couple enters into a contract that allows the wife to spank the husband for certain behavioral infractions. Our contract specifies certain behaviors that I am to strive for and allows for both preventative (maintenance) and punishment spankings. We view this as a form of FLR, because my wife is in charge and is the head of our household. Queenie was critical of this type of relationship, because she viewed it as Femdom and not an FLR, because it was focused on my behavior and not focused on my wife. We obviously disagree with that assessment.

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    3. Thanks for the info Brent. I am familiar with disciplined husbands, just not the term DWC. Hope you stop by again!

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    4. Hi Brent. I am glad your wife benefited from my course. Was I really critical of your relationship? I doubt that. When your wife informed me of what she really wanted, I told her that I was proud that she knew what she wanted and made a firm decision. Did she tell you that I was critical? Why would I be when my goal is to aid women to figure out what they want from a relationship?

      FLR, at least the way I teach it, focuses on the woman's needs and empowering HER to have a great life. The other options, including DWC, and Femdom, focus on the man's need to be dominated, controlled and abused. My site clearly states on the ABOUT page and many other posts that this site is about LOVING FLRS without kink or degradation and it is NOT about femdom. So my training reflects that...unless the woman states otherwise. Whatever she wants me to teach, I will. I am here to support WOMEN in understanding their options and getting what THEY want from life.

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  10. IH, very good post. This is a very well written article you refer to. I agree that you should not expect your spouse to be someone she is not, or do something she is not comfortable with. However, I still feel that, as I've said before, you seem conflicted by the tone of your recent posts. I think this article provides an excellent alternative. I am glad you are considering a talk with Mrs Katie. If she is not comfortable doing the things you would like her to do, I think it would be reasonable to float the idea of an occasional evening of role play as suggested by the article. Possibly, thru role playing, she would find that these things or actions you wish for are not as outside her personality as he originally thought and she may even find something she enjoys. She loves you and really wants you to be happy.

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    1. She does love me Wishful4 but I just can't keep silent (but have been so since I first broached the subject via an email). I'm sitting tight and waiting on her but I do want to share my thoughts and speak my mind. I just need to. I'm sure you understand... not that anything will change but at least I'll get things out in the open. I know any change is ultimately her's do decide.

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  11. IM Her's, I think all the points made here by the commenters and the referenced article are correct from the perspective of any of the coupleS involved. We are really splitting hairs here. The real point is that the man must respect the style of relationship the woman favors while he is trying to communicate his needs.

    I think my own wife may be a bit like your Katie, in that she certainly enjoys the benefits of FLR/femdom but is not as interested in discussing it in detail the way you or I might like. That's the case for our relationship anyway. My wife would get turned off if we got talked about it at length. Perhaps the author of the article has had the same experience with his wife. This would explain the "You can't pressure a woman to dominate you" paragraph.

    I have had some setbacks trying to initiate conversations with her on these sort of things. Perhaps you are a more eloquent speaker than I am, and so you may have better luck. However, I have had success buy writing to her. It gives me time to make sure my thoughts are true, and it gives her time to digest the words. It also would serve as a record if she ever has to say " you told me you would..."

    Writing to the most important person in the whole world requires tender care. I alway try to tell her how good it makes me feel to do this or that, or how grateful I am she lets me (fill in very personal details here). I do not write "why don't you let me do this or that", or "you should Do this or that". I thing it works for us because she loves me, she wants to see me happy, especially if what I'm asking for is something she would enjoy as well, and she doesn't want to be told what to do. I know if she doesn't want to do whatever that is, she won't.

    It's like holding the door open to a restaurant you are passing, and asking her "should we try this place?". She will know. Maybe she'll say "not tonight", but she might might jump at the chance too. If she passes on it, the next time you walk past there you could say "I'd still like to try this place with you some day." Keep smiling, one day you might find yourself in there with her.

    Wish you both happiness, and enjoy the journey.

    D.

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    1. D, thanks for sharing. You know, this whole thing came to a head because I wrote a "post draft" for her to approve - one that I haven't posted - in which I spelled out my feelings. She read it and her response.... "that makes me sad". Which lead to us talking some but we need to talk more. I do love her and my love for her is separate, although intimately intertwined with her dominance (and I'm sure she feels the same about me and my submission). Yet, this is all for her to decide, should she decide on anything different and I know I'll need to be satisfied with whatever that decision ends up being. Thanks for taking the time to write!

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  12. You are overthinking. It’s really simple. Just ask Katie.

    Forget the Internet’s thoughts and ask Katie. Keep in perspective what’s important.

    Is it a form of pressure? Topping from the bottom? Why ask the Internet? Why not ask Katie directly? Aren’t it her thoughts the most important? Her thoughts should be final, damn the Internet. If she wants input, so be it. If she doesn’t, you shut up. If you don’t know, ask her.

    Keep in mind people’s preferences can change from one minute to the next. Like today you may want chicken, and tomorrow you may want beef. Today Katie may want X amount of input from you and next week she may change. Today she may not feel pressured, but next week she may be, then following week she may wonder why you are so silent. Adjust accordingly. How? Observe her carefully. If you are still unsure, just ask.

    Considering the paradox and contradictions:
    She: I don’t have time. You do the research on what FLR is and tell me what to do. You teach me.
    Me: But that’s topping from the bottom.
    She: Why can’t you follow a simple instruction?
    Me: I may be selfish and ask you to do thing I enjoy the most first.
    She: You have my permission. I simply won’t do things I don’t enjoy. Go ahead and tell me what you want.

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    1. HS, I hear what you're saying about "forget about thoughts on the internet" but I enjoy hearing others opinnions. In the end, I'll wait until Katie is ready to talk and then we'll discuss things as she/I see them. Thanks for sharing and stop by again!

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  13. Thanks for an interesting discussion. The comments here are thought-provoking and multi-dimensional, underscoring the fact that there is no one way to do this. A danger of online communication is running into absolutes: it must be this way, here's the proper acronym that should apply, no other will do. But really, it's about relationships, not labels. Common sense tells us that there is a difference between communicating and pressuring. The trick for a submissive, given the paradox that submission rests on, is to communicate (even educate) while remaining submissive and respectful. The bottom line is that you can't change who your partner is. That said, you can open doors.

    You are doing the right thing. You said you are about to have a discussion with Katie. Do it. Open doors. Expand horizons. Tell her what you are thinking "Here are ways of being that we can explore." Lay it out. And more importantly, listen and be sensitive to her feelings. Remember, it is her call to enter that door, not yours.

    I've seen my wife move from a traditional housewife totally uninformed about Wife Led Marriage to an empowered, loving partner who thinks of me as her 24/7 slave. Two cliche's apply: "actions speak louder than words," and "communicate communicate communicate" -- franklin

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    1. Anonymous, Thanks for joining the conversation. I appreciate your thoughts as well as the thoughts of others. Like you, others give me ideas and perspectives different than mine and help me process/think through things more thoroughly. Thanks again.

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